"Integrated Consciousness, reply"

To: Egoism and Ethics Debate 
Subject: Re: Integrated Consciousness
From: Dennis Hudecki 
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 01:35:17 -0700

On Fri, 23 Jun 2000, David G. McDivitt wrote:
> "Being Good versus Being Christian", by David McDivitt
> Often times when a person speaks of being good, religion replies, "But
> being good will not get you into heaven".


We are left therefore to
> wonder how being good rates against religious or spiritual belief.
> Through which focus does society fair better? Surely there is something
> to be said for ethical conduct.
> The hope of going to heaven is at best a selfish desire.


Living a life
> of toil, woe, and obligation,


the thought of one day having relief or
> satisfaction may have great meaning. Why must this supposed reward be in
> the afterlife?


Why not enjoy the life we have now?

wrong. Religion wants you to enjoy your life now.

If a person has
> fondness for principles and values, surely living by those principles
> and values can provide happiness, now.

wrong if you think religion does not want you live by your principles and values

If people are being who and what
> they want to be now, should they not be happy now?

wrong if you think that religion does not want you to be happy now

> Religion represents an authority game lasting for thousands of years.

wrong; you must be confusing religion with some bad church practices

> There are whatever standards, said to be dictated by God.

wrong; the standards are there for reason to grasp and things like the commandments not to kill and steal are mere summaries of what the mind has already discoverd

There are
> individual men who disseminate those standards,


enjoying that position
> in society, and there are others who grudgingly or not abide by those
> standards. Strictly in the classic sense, doing good or abiding by
> standards is said to be hard, and human nature is said to be inherently
> evil or bad.

wrong, if you are thinking of X-ity or Judeism.

It is said man cannot be good, worthwhile, or wholesome
> except by going against his nature.

completely and utterly wrong; dead wrong. And you think you understand religion????????????????

> Assuming God does exist and dictates rules for people to live by,


> forces people to obey?


One may say "going to hell", but does the
> presence of hell necessarily prevent people from killing each other?
> Does it prevent discrimination in our society based on race or sex?
> Okay, the mere presence of hell does not prevent crime, so one may then
> say the fear of hell prevents crime, or the fear of judgement or
> punitive action prevents crime. But does it really?

You wrongly think--and this is anothe bigtime mistake, that religion, if it were true, would stop evil or even slow it down 1%

Observing human
> behavior, it is realized that as authoritarianism increases, so does
> rebellion against that authoritarianism.


How strange to have religion
> demand compliance with its own authority


, and people suffer that burden
> of servitude,

wrong; Jesus blamed the pharisees for trying to put the people into servitude and said that they were not truly religious

then following death religion says it will provide peace
> and reward.

not to the phony religious-types that you are describing

Need it be said people are no longer any use to religion
> after they die?

what do you mean?

This abuse of naive human participation in religious
> endeavor is not the fault of religion. It is the fault of no one. It is
> however representative of inconsistencies in the consciousness of
> mankind, how difficult it remains for men to reconcile the real to
> perceived ideals, and how from an evolutionary perspective human thought
> has yet to be fully integrated. Integration stands in contrast to
> fragmented or dualistic consciousness.
> Another perspective is to realize people do what they want to do. Some
> think and act with a sense of purpose. Some think and act with regard to
> principles and values. Some think and act with no forethought at all. It
> is possible to enjoy being good without being religious.

true; you are wrong in thinking that religion does not see this

It is possible
> to recognize what principles do for self and society. It is possible to
> say, "These are my values", instead of, "I have God's values",

wrong in the sense you think the two are mutually exclusive

or "I
> obey God". An integrated consciousness is thus represented which does
> not flip flop back and forth between views of authority and obedience.

Yuk. We agree that authority and obedience are not the way to live a good life,

> Nor does one vacillate between the real and ideal, or the physical and
> the spiritual.

What do you mean?


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